Cutting and injuries

[Philosopherking]

Is there any link between cutting weight or just working out in a calorie deficit in general and injuries?  I finally committed to dropping weight, formed a plan and am doing pretty well (about 20 lbs so far and a three belt holes), but since I have started I have noticed the following:

1.  My joints hurt. 
2.  My knee started locking up (this seems to have gone away).
3.  My shoulder strained so bad I couldn't lift my arm over my head.  (better but still hurts).
4.  I was doing that damn tire flip and my elbow made a popping sound, and is now killing me when I rotate my arm (like looking at a watch) or curl up. 
5.  I am weaker (but I am not sure if it is the joint injuries or I am just weaker). 

Other than being weaker which I assume is normal in a calorie deficit are the injuries just wear and tear or just coincidence?

[FLEX]

I haven't done a real cut since 2012 so I have no idea....I can't remember back that far.

[AlexanderOmand]

Yes, there is an absolute correlation.  You're running your body in a deficit.  Therefore, not getting enough fuel, or vitamins.  You're at a weakened state of being, and especially so, if you're not getting enough water. 

So yes, achy joints, sore tendons, extra "Cracks" in the morning when you roll out of bed.

This is why so many bodybuilders tear or rupture bits as they get closer to a Competition.

[induced_drag]

100%

Several things.  The joints are mostly fluid.  Cutting is generally dropping carbs which leads to less water retention.

Water / bloat also = strength.  So less bloat, less strength.

I dont know how far you are into cutting but when you dip below 12-15 (unless you were born there and stayed your whole life) stuff really starts to change, and if you continue to cut long enough, you will lose strength that will never come back.   The loss of intermuscular fat is impossible to measure but happens as you dip into the 10% range.  You look harder and denser, but the loss of this fat leads to overall strength loss which does not return.   (even if you get fat again).   The fat will more likely return sub q and I am convinced it would take years if ever to get the deposits back if you could ever get them.  Hence why they try to keep animal stock from exercising too much as the fat gets worked out of the tissue and poor marbling.

As a great example of this, I was actually stronger at about the 1 year mark in my return to the gym.   I probably was about 190 and 12% and I could bench 225 almost 30 times.   Now I probably carry 15+ lbs more muscle and I am no stronger and probably a little weaker.   I have leaned out too much and my strength will never be what it could have been if I stayed a little fatter.

My recommendation is if strength is your goal, dont even cut to where you below 12-13%.  After you get to 10 and stay there, things get a lot worse.

FWIW, I feel downright fragile compared to how I felt when I carried more fat.   My skin all over is so thin it hurts.  I cant kneel on my knees, the bar on my back hurts when I squat...etc.   I laughed at stuff like that before, but it gets real as you lean out. 

[tooth]

So yes, achy joints, sore tendons, extra "Cracks" in the morning when you roll out of bed.

That's how I feel now, and I eat like an asshole.  Guess I'd be in a wheel chair if I tried to cut weight.   

[Philosopherking]

100%

Several things.  The joints are mostly fluid.  Cutting is generally dropping carbs which leads to less water retention.

Water / bloat also = strength.  So less bloat, less strength.

I dont know how far you are into cutting but when you dip below 12-15 (unless you were born there and stayed your whole life) stuff really starts to change, and if you continue to cut long enough, you will lose strength that will never come back.   The loss of intermuscular fat is impossible to measure but happens as you dip into the 10% range.  You look harder and denser, but the loss of this fat leads to overall strength loss which does not return.   (even if you get fat again).   The fat will more likely return sub q and I am convinced it would take years if ever to get the deposits back if you could ever get them.  Hence why they try to keep animal stock from exercising too much as the fat gets worked out of the tissue and poor marbling.

As a great example of this, I was actually stronger at about the 1 year mark in my return to the gym.   I probably was about 190 and 12% and I could bench 225 almost 30 times.   Now I probably carry 15+ lbs more muscle and I am no stronger and probably a little weaker.   I have leaned out too much and my strength will never be what it could have been if I stayed a little fatter.

My recommendation is if strength is your goal, dont even cut to where you below 12-13%.  After you get to 10 and stay there, things get a lot worse.

FWIW, I feel downright fragile compared to how I felt when I carried more fat.   My skin all over is so thin it hurts.  I cant kneel on my knees, the bar on my back hurts when I squat...etc.   I laughed at stuff like that before, but it gets real as you lean out.

. Thank you.  I would love to be a strength/power guy, but my back/spine can't even handle squats or deads and a leg press powerlifter is sort of comical.  I guess its mostly my ego suffering (I doubt anyone else cares).  I would be fine around 12% BF- I just hope I dont lose too much strength in the process of getting there.  Any remedy for the joint pain/injuries-  Should I slow things down and lighten up even more in order to prevent further injuries?

[Philosopherking]

So yes, achy joints, sore tendons, extra "Cracks" in the morning when you roll out of bed.

That's how I feel now, and I eat like an asshole.  Guess I'd be in a wheel chair if I tried to cut weight.   

Lol.  I do too.  My back is so bad I walk to the bathroom like Im 90, all stooped over.  Takes me an hour or so to straighten up.  Now Im getting all of these damn other pains.  I was hoping that the weight loss would be good for the back, but shit if everything else is going to fall apart Im not sure its worth it. 

[induced_drag]

Thank you.  I would love to be a strength/power guy, but my back/spine can't even handle squats or deads and a leg press powerlifter is sort of comical.  I guess its mostly my ego suffering (I doubt anyone else cares).  I would be fine around 12% BF- I just hope I dont lose too much strength in the process of getting there.  Any remedy for the joint pain/injuries-  Should I slow things down and lighten up even more in order to prevent further injuries?

Nothing wrong with leg press.   I took 2+ years aways from squatting and did not suffer.   Just have to do the best you can if you truly have injuries.   At the end of the day you have to look for the best ways to stress your body.   If you really cant do something....then work around it.   BUT do give up easy

Never lighten up when in a legit deficit.  If anything train heavier (relative to where your strength level is at).  Drop volume if you need to.   Take longer rest between sets.   Just apply the maximum stimulus to the muscles while dieting.  DO NOT go light.  (unless dieting off LBM is your goal).

When you get to a point, you just have to claw onto every last bit of strength you can and ride it out.   It is a mind fuk....just deal with it.   Bench was affected the worst for me.  (aprox 10% from a glycogen loaded state to a deficit state).   I would drop off 40 lbs by week 5-6 of cutting.   (It however would come back 95% by 2 weeks eating carbs at normal levels again).   

Squats were affected about 5%.   They will REALLY take a hit when you first diet as any fat loss off your waist gives you much less push off out of the hole.   I have seen some big squatters lose 75-100lbs on their squat when they drop from a big 38" waist down to a 30".   That wont come back.   The lost fat is a lot of lost leverage out of the hole.    After the big hit (depending on how much you have to lose off your waist, it is just leg fat out of the hole and general bloat as well.   Not a big deal.

Deads were only about 3% for me.  Just general bloat and less to push off against.  Since you are not down as far in the hole coming off the floor on a deadlift, it is not nearly as impacted by fat loss.

As for preventing injuries.....just keep salt levels up (as long as you dont have HBP) and warm up good.   Dig deep....take lots of rest between sets and work the 3-10 rep ranges as heavy as you can go focusing on big compound exercises.  Keep iso work to just a little and save your energy for pushing yourself.   Dont expect gains....just fight to hold on as best you can!

[Philosopherking]

Thank you ID

[cmoore]

Yep joint and tendons are more sensitive as you get leaner.

Rules of thumb to survive this:
-EAT MORE SALT (unless you're sick --high blood pressure, diabetes, kidney disease, etc). Salt helps with water retention since your carbs are down (carbo-"hydrate" holds water in the body).
-DRINK more water
-ensure you get enough protein (repair) and adequate fats (hormones)
-STRETCH
-Do more warm ups before getting into working sets

[induced_drag]

@cmoore

Good to see you man!   Hope all is well.    Saw your response in another thread about being busy.   Good to know you are still around!!!

[cmoore]

@cmoore

Good to see you man!   Hope all is well.    Saw your response in another thread about being busy.   Good to know you are still around!!!

Thanks brother.